[Mb-civic] Col. Tim Collins (Retd.) on 'Cynical Iraq War'

Cheeseburger maxfury at granderiver.net
Fri Sep 17 19:02:02 PDT 2004

Re:  Col. Tim Collins (Retd.) on 'Cynical Iraq War'

Again, with all due respect to everyone and their parakeet, ATTACHMENTS do 
not work on the MB Civic List.  ATTACHMENTS are SCRUBBED, DELETED, or put 
into the below form.  Of the 99 percent of the ATTACHMENTS which I can NOT 
read at all when posted to the MB Civic List instead of PLAIN TEXT 
NON-ATTACHMENTS, such as jpg, obj, etc, sometimes I can click and read HTML 
ATTACHMENTS in the place they have been SCRUBBED to.

This is what ATTACHMENTS look like to me on my Internet Browser Screen the 
10 percent of the time that I can view them.  I felt someone else should 
see this, as I'm probably not the only one who can NOT read ATTACHMENTS to 
posts here which are SCRUBBED, and maybe people can be softly reminded that 
ATTACHMENTS do NOT work for all of us when sent here.  Thank you and have a 
lovely weekend:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=750 border=0>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=445>
<P class=padnone><BR><!-- location bar end --></P><!--       &nbspTemplate: 
story.jsp                --><!--       &nbspStory ID: 562662-->
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width=165 align=right bgColor=#f5f5f5>
<TD vAlign=top align=left bgColor=#f5f5f5>
<P class=greylabel>Across the site</P>
<P class=padless><SPAN class=red>Iraq</SPAN></P><!-- indy:relatedLinkBox -->
<P class=related><A class=black12px 
who rallied UK troops condemns 'cynical' Iraq war</A> </P>
<P class=related><A class=black12px 
failed to plan for after war, report says</A> </P>
<P class=related><A class=black12px 
Americans and a Briton are latest victims of Iraq's thriving kidnap 
industry</A> </P>
<P class=related><A class=black12px 
to back Blair on war's legality</A> </P>
<P class=related><A class=black12px 
article: This verdict on the illegal war in Iraq demolishes Mr Blair's last 
line of defence<IMG height=11 alt="independent portfolio" 
width=24 border=0> </A></P><!--Editorial slots 2 and 3 ... --><!-- 
editorial advert slot3 --><!--  Advertron2: Slot 2 - Editor's Choice   ( 
#1379 )  --><!-- Indy:Include story# 324058 -->
<P class=red id=sectionheadline>Editor's Choice</P>
<P><A class=black12px 
class=grey>Duran Duran</B><BR><IMG height=44 
width=40 align=left vspace=2 border=0> With sell-out shows, they're being 
fêted again</A></P>
<P><A class=black12px 
class=grey>Johann Hari</B><IMG height=11 alt="independent portfolio" 
width=24 border=0><BR>Rural life is only possible because of townie 
<P><A class=black12px 
class=grey>Mena Suvari</B><BR><IMG height=44 
width=40 align=left vspace=2 border=0> Cheerleader, <BR>drug addict. 
<BR>What next?</A></P>
<P><A class=black12px 
class=grey>David McKittrick</B><IMG height=11 alt="independent portfolio" 
width=24 border=0><BR>Will the fundamentalist Paisley prevail over the 
<P><A class=black12px 
class=grey>Roddy Doyle</B><BR><IMG height=44 
width=40 align=left vspace=2 border=0> On music, myth <BR>and the new 
<P><A class=black12px 
href="http://forums.delphiforums.com/IndyBookGroup/messages" target=new><B 
class=grey>Book Group</B><BR>This will turn out to be a modern 
classic</A></P><!--Also from ... -->
<P class=padless><SPAN class=red>Also from this section</SPAN></P>
<P><A class=black12px 
links of the Commons invaders</A><SPAN class=dategrey><BR></SPAN></P>
<P><A class=black12px 
denies Blair 'wobbled' and had thoughts of resigning</A><SPAN 
<P><A class=black12px 
equipment' smuggled into Commons despite extra security</A><SPAN 
<P><A class=black12px 
Dems threaten to vote against enlargement of EU</A><SPAN 
<P><A class=black12px 
Commons Eight: polo colleagues and hunt friends</A><SPAN 
<H1 class=head1>Officer who rallied UK troops condemns 'cynical' Iraq war</H1>
<H3 class=head3>By Kim Sengupta</H3>
<P class=padnone>17 September 2004
<P><!-- Indy:Include story# 562600 -->
<P>Colonel Tim Collins, the British commander whose stirring speech to his 
troops on the eve of the Iraq invasion was reportedly hung on a wall in the 
Oval Office by George Bush, has criticised the British and US governments 
over the war.</P>
<P>The officer, who has now left the Army, condemned the lack of planning 
for the aftermath of the conflict and questioned the motives for attacking 
Iraq. He said abuses against Iraqi civilians were partly the result of 
"leaders of a country, leaders of an alliance" constantly referring to them 
as the "enemy ... rather than treating them as people". This attitude was 
inevitably adopted by some soldiers on the ground, he said.</P>
<P>"Either it was a war to liberate the people of Iraq, in which case there 
was gross incompetence, or it was simply a cynical war that was going to 
happen anyway to vent some form of anger on Saddam Hussein's regime with no 
regard to the consequences on the Iraqi people. In that case it is a form 
of common assault - and the evidence would point towards the latter," he 
said on BBC Radio 4's <I>Today</I> programme.</P>
<P>The speech of the commander of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Irish 
Regiment was seized on by advocates of the war. Col Collins faced 
allegations of misconduct during the campaign, but was cleared by an 
inquiry, and subsequently was appointedOBE.</P>
<P>Yesterday Col Collins said that "the whole international community is 
dismayed by the result of the Iraq war" but he felt that liberating Iraq 
was still "the right thing to do. There is no doubt that the country needed 
to be liberated. Whether it could have been done in a different way must be 
judged by history."</P>
<P>He added: "The evidence would show, in hindsight, that the preparations 
for a free and fair Iraq were not made and therefore one must question the 
motivation of the powers that went to attack it. There was very little 
preparation or thought given to what would follow on from the invasion.</P>
<P>"It is fair to say that the United States and its ally the UK are living 
the consequence having removed the Baathist regime without any thought 
about what would replace it. There's no doubt that there was a great deal 
of incompetence involved but ultimately I think one has to look at the 
reasons for going to war."</P>
<P>Asked about the claims of abuse of Iraqi prisoners, Col Collins said: 
"The abuse of any individual is to be condemned without qualification. 
However, I would observe that if the leaders of a country, or the leaders 
of an alliance, talk in terms of 'them', 'the enemy' rather than treating 
them as people, how can they expect the lowest common denominator, the 
basic soldiery, to interpret it in any other way?</P>
<P>"Leadership comes from the top and soldiers at the lowest level will 
interpret their need to act from the guidance given by leaders. They are 
either well led or badly led. Ultimately the responsibility for the actions 
of soldiers must come back to the leaders."</P>
<P>Col Collins was himself accused of striking an Iraqi prisoner with his 
pistol, although he was later exonerated. But he said: "Inevitably my 
decision to leave the Army was influenced by my disillusionment with the 
extent to which the Army supported me after I was doing my best to carry 
out orders as given. I don't think I was let down as much as I don't feel I 
was particularly well supported." </P><!-- start of footer --></TD>
<TD width=10>&nbsp;</TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=left width=165><!-- date -->
<P class=datesmall>
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript>document.write( getDateString() );</SCRIPT>
17 September 2004 17:16</P>
<TABLE class=channelbg cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 width=165>
<TR class=channelbg>
<FORM class=searchbox name=minisearch action=/search/search.jsp><INPUT 
type=hidden value=1 name=minisearch>
<TD class=channelbg>&nbsp;<SPAN class=articletext>Search this 
site:</SPAN><BR clear=all>&nbsp;<INPUT class=box 
onclick="document.minisearch.keywords.value='';" size=16 name=keywords></TD>
<TD><INPUT class=button type=submit value=Go name=submit></TD></FORM></TR>
<TD>&nbsp;<A class=black12px 
height=11 alt="printable version" 
src="http://www.independent.co.uk/img/furniture/printer_icon.gif" width=23 
border=0>Printable Story</A><BR clear=all></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- 
commercial adverts -->
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TR vAlign=top align=middle>
<TD><IMG height=9 alt="" 
src="http://news.independent.co.uk/img/furniture/trans.gif" width=165 
<TR vAlign=top align=middle>
<TD><!--  Advertron2: money supermarket mortgage   ( #1250 )  --><A 
width=120 border=0></A> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- commercial adverts 
end --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
for Ads Free at Mail.com<br>


- Where has the sparrow gone now that I need its song.

More information about the Mb-civic mailing list