[Mb-civic] Re: Good Answers

[ean at sbcglobal.net]

please convey my gratitude to your correspondent who had the patience and 
took the time to answer this pablum.  It is a valuable exercise because 
rightwing propagandists disseminate this kind of stuff constantly and its 
important to clearly and succinctly refute it  --Mha Atma

On 23 Jul 2004 at 10:00, Michael Butler wrote:

> One of our group responds to a recent posting from the Dark Side;
> 
> Michael,
> 
> I have never responded to one of these things but I had to with this one:
> 
> >> Subject: Facts to make liberals start thinking for a change
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>>> Learn these facts to properly debate
> >>>> our poor misguided friends &
> >>>> family before election time !!!
> >>>> 
> >>>> There were 39 combat related killings
> >>>> in Iraq during the month of January.....
> >>>> In the fair city of Detroit there were
> >>>> 35 murders in the month of January.
> >>>> 
> >>>> That's just one American city,
> >>>> about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.
> 
> Does that make it OK?  Then again, isn't Detroit a predominately black city?
> I suppose that makes it OK that there were 35 murders in Detroit back in
> January.  How many military deaths occurred in Iraq during April and May of
> 2004?  Were there as many in Detroit, or better yet, Atlanta?  This is an
> argument that makes me question the writer's position on race.
> >>>> 
> >>>> When some claim President Bush shouldn't
> >>>> have started this war, state the following ..
> >>>> FDR...
> >>>> led us into World War II.
> >>>> Germany never attacked us: Japan did.
> >>>>>> From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost,
> >>>> an average of 112,500 per yr .
> We had been in an undeclared war with Germany from early 1941 onward (the
> Japanese attacked in December, 1941).  Two American destroyers had been
> attacked and sunk by German U-boats in the North Atlantic.  Before Japan
> attacked, the U.S. Navy had a "shoot on sight" order to American ships
> operating in the North Atlantic insofar as German naval vessels were
> concerned.  Japan and Germany were allies, having signed the Tripartite Pact
> in 1941.  Germany was bound to Japan via this pact, and it was Germany, on
> December 11, 1941, that declared war on the United States.  We responded in
> kind.  The genius that came up with this "fact" as a way of making the Iraq
> war "ok" needs to study history closer, or perhaps even pay attention to
> what he's reading rather than just skimming the facts that fit his argument.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Truman...
> >>>> finished that war and started one in Korea,
> >>>> North Korea never attacked us.
> >>>>>> From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost,
> >>>> an average of 18,334 per year.
> 
> The intervention in Korea was mandated by the U.N. Security Council.  Once
> again, whoever came up with this nonsense needs to read his history, rather
> than take broad strokes and try to make it "fit" to his case.
> >>>> 
> >>>> John F. Kennedy...
> >>>> started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
> >>>> Vietnam never attacked us.
> 
> Kennedy actually committed U.S. military advisors in 1961, not 1962, at the
> invitation of the Diem government which at that time governed South Vietnam.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Johnson...
> >>>> turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
> >>>>>> From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost,
> >>>> an average of 5,800 per year.
> 
> The Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution, which was the American pretext for placing
> ground troops in Vietnam, was highly supported by Republicans and Democrats
> alike.  I see what the author of these facts is trying to do here;
> Republicans are good, Democrats are bad, therefore Vietnam was JOHNSON'S
> war, and Johnson was a Democrat.   I don't know where the writer is going
> with this one, except to perhaps say "Johnson was a Democrat and Democrats
> are just plain bad".
> >>>> 
> >>>> Clinton...
> >>>> went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent,
> 
> We never went to war with Bosnia.  Yes, we had AIR INTERVENTION in Bosnia in
> 1995.  NATO ground troops went into KOSOVO in 1999.  Those are two different
> regions.  U.N. troops went into BOSNIA in 1995.  The U.S., being a member of
> the U.N., also committed troops later that year.  True, Clinton was the
> President of the United States when this happened, but the war in Bosnia,
> perpetuated by the Serbians, had been going on since 1991 and was disgusting
> to most Europeans. 
> 
> >>>> Bosnia never attacked us.
> 
> Once again, we didn't go to war with BOSNIA.
> 
> >>>> He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter
> >>>> three times by Sudan and did nothing.
> 
> Really?  Sudan is a lawless nation ruled by warlords.  When did this happen?
> Where did this information come from?
> 
> >>>> Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
> 
> And President Bush did nothing when he came in office.  Just check with
> Richard Clarke.  Also, Osama's stay in the Sudan was before he actually had
> attacked the two embassies in East Africa, which is when most of us realized
> that this guy was a threat.  At the time of the East African bombings, he
> was in Afghanistan.  Afghanistan was ruled by the Taliban, who did not offer
> his head on a platter WHEN WE WANTED IT.
> >>>> 
> >>>> In the two years since terrorists attacked us
> >>>> President Bush has ..
> >>>> liberated two countries,
> 
> Afghanistan is still in the throes of civil war.  I would hardly say Iraq
> was liberated, because they are also on the verge of civil war.  True,
> Saddam was a nasty, horrible, revolting dictator, but don't think we went
> over there to "liberate" those people.  If I recall, we were told that
> Saddama had "weapons of mass destruction" that were earmarked for use by
> terrorists, who would use those weapons on the United States.
> >>>> crushed the Taliban,
> 
> The Taliban is still very much alive.  Where is that Mullah Omar guy?  Was
> the SS active in Germany after May, 1945, when Germany surrendered, or was
> the dreaded Japanese Kempentai active in Japan after the surrender of Japan
> in September, 1945?  Something tells me the Taliban, which is still active,
> is not active and simply regrouping.  I don't recall the SS or any elements
> of the Japanese Imperial army doing that.
> 
> >>>> crippled al-Qaida,
> 
> Really?  Tell that to someone who was riding those trains in Madrid back on
> March 11, 2004.  Crippled?  I say enhanced.
> 
> >>>> put nuclear inspectors in Libya,
> >>>> Iran and North Korea
> 
> North Korea?  What a load of crap.  Sure, they went to Libya after they were
> invited.  They didn't seem to make much of a difference to the Iranians, who
> are still actively researching atomic weapons research and who would proudly
> use them on us, or more likely, Israel, someday soon.
> 
> >>>> without firing a shot,
> >>>> and captured a terrorist who slaughtered
> >>>> 300,000 of his own people.
> 
> I suspect he's referring to Saddam Hussein.
> 
> >>>> The Democrats are complaining
> >>>> about how long the war is taking, but...
> >>>> It took less time to take Iraq
> 
> Big deal.  The Iraqis had a pathetic army and no air force to speak of.
> Boasting about us destroying the Iraqi army in two weeks is silly when you
> have to remember that the Germans invaded France in May, 1940, routed the
> British and French armies, sent the British scurrying across the English
> Channel and obliterated the French Army in the same amount of time.  If I
> recall, the French and the British had airplanes and also outnumbered the
> Germans.  
> >>>> than it took Janet Reno to take the
> >>>> Branch Davidian compound.
> >>>> That was a 51 day operation.
> 
> That was a law enforcement operation that you really can't compare to
> invading a foreign country.  Where does this guy come up with this stuff?
> >>>> 
> >>>> We've been looking for evidence of
> >>>> chemical weapons in Iraq for less
> >>>> time than it took Hillary Clinton to
> >>>> find the Rose Law Firm billing records.
> 
> Here we go with the "I hate Clinton" nonsense again.  Let's look at Tom
> DeLay's shady finances, and for that matter, let's examine Enron's
> relationship with Dick Cheney and George W. Bush.  Come on!  The Clintons
> are continually lambasted for being inept businessmen, and White Water
> scandal, which turned out to be NOTHING, is a joke.  Let's look at the sale
> of Mr. Bush's Harken Energy stock back in 1990.  Martha Stewart, a Democrat,
> is going to jail for something far less offensive than Mr. Bush's insider
> trading.
> >>>> 
> >>>> It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division
> >>>> and the Marines to destroy the Medina
> >>>> Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to
> >>>> call the police after his Oldsmobile
> >>>> sank at Chappaquiddick.
> 
> Our Marines are the best soldiers in the world.  The best of the best, make
> no mistake about it.  But where is the honor in wiping out an enemy (the
> Medina Republican Guard) who was equipped with ancient T-72 tanks, most of
> which were falling apart from lack of spares and were firing defective
> shells?  The Republican Guard was a joke and if you ask any Marine, they'll
> agree.  For "our" Republicans to go on and on about this "victory" against
> the Iraqi army is just as silly as someone saying "The New England Patriots
> just slammed this Junior Varsity 3 A football team from Alabama yesterday!
> The score was 100 to 7!  Wow!"
> >>>> 
> >>>> It took less time to take Iraq than it took
> >>>> to count the votes in Florida!!!!
> 
> And this is something to be proud of?  I guess democracy is great for this
> clown so long as it's the best democracy money can buy.  Florida, bought and
> paid for.  
> >>>> 
> >>>> Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB!
> 
> Crap.  Rubbish.  Nonsense.
> 
> >>>> The Military moral is high!
> 
> Again.  Talk to a guy who has done his tour in Baghdad, who wants to go
> home, was promised he would get to go home, and he's still there fighting
> "Bush's War".  
> 
> >>>> The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the
> >>> facts. 
> 
> And the writer of this bunch of distortions and poorly thought out arguments
> is also biased and pathetic.  If most Americans think like this, if most
> Americans choose NOT TO THINK (like this clown), well then we get whatever
> government we deserve.
> 
> >> 
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> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > ------ End of Forwarded Message
> > 
> 
> 
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